WAR! WHEN IS IT GOOD FOR?
Posted on December 11, 2007
Filed Under Stephen Christian |
i don’t know where to begin this conversation and i am sure i won’t know when to end.
i am not one of those people who stand on the side of the road and protest the war, in all honesty i try to look at the positives in the war (debatable whether the word “postive” and “war” ever belong in the same sentence). we all see clearly the negatives, i mean its war. people die. no matter if that’s one person or one million no one should die. but some positive aspects of the war in iraq currently are this.
* “there are now over 100 newspapers in the free press. . . in a free iraq.” this means more freedom of speech in iraq! something we americans take for granted.
* “the independent central bank of Germany, it took three years after world war II to establish it-it was established in iraq in two months; that the police in germany were established after 14 months-in iraq, they were established in two months; that a new currency in germany took three years-it took two and a half months in Iraq. the cabinet in germany took 14 months. iraq has a cabinet today after four months.”
* “the governing council of iraq is easily the most representative body of governance ever formed in that nation, and is rapidly gaining real powers and responsibilities, such as appointing ministers, representing Iraq to the international community, and beginning the process of drafting the first-ever iraqi constitution.” the arab league last week accepted an envoy from the council as a legitimate representative of Iraq.
* “over 90% of Iraqi towns and provinces now have their own governing councils, including the holy Shiite cities of najaf and karbala.”
* “schools were immediately stood back up. at all levels the school year was salvaged.”
* “hospitals nation-wide are open. doctors and nurses are at work.”
* “public services-electrical, water, sewage-are better than pre-war levels.”
* “oil production has continued to increase, and recently it has averaged between 1.5 and 2 million barrels per day.”
so in some ways we are working for a more “free” and stable country on the other side of the world. the problem rests for me not just in the age old question of ‘is war just or right?’ and not just ‘what makes any war just?’ but who voted america to be the police of the world? i want to help the world i really do but i just feel there is more ways to solve problems without the use of so much death, destruction, and debt.
i recently read an article on an education portal, which was explaining that we pay about $186,000 per minute (total of 443.7 billion). it is not the amount of zeros that make this frustrating its that they went on to say that with that amount of money we could put 21,510,598 (the amount of every high school student in the united states) students through a four year college education at a state school, add 7,689,734 million more teachers to our school system.
how ethnocentric (i hope) some of you are saying!!! here i am ranting on relevant all the time about helping the world but then i turn and use the money used to save a nation from a malicious and malevolence dictator. but honestly if we invest into all the children/high school students in America i GUARENTEE that we will live in a better future for the ENTIRE WORLD down the road. here we could raise up a generation who values the power of the pen over the sword, we could invest into their children’s children by empowering their parents with education (which equals better jobs and a more stable economical environment). the positive reprocutions to the generation who receives the opportunity for a free 4 year education is endless! when there is a suddam (and there will be) in 50 years they will know how to handle the problem diplomatically with more options than just “shock and awe”.
don’t get me wrong, war in american history has done some necessary, positive, and even very valid achievements in our history! revolutionary war freed us from taxation without representation, civil war freed mankind (america) from the oppression of slavery, and world war one and two were vital to defeating emperors and dictators determined to conquer the world. before i got into music for years i wanted to go to westpoint military academy and even visited it in high school hoping to eventually make the military my career. i theologically and philosophically have no qualms with the function of a democratically run military. i believe that we do need a military, not every government in the world can sit down at a table and have a in depth conversation and negatiate problems and come to a balanced and fair agreement. i think we need a good defense because not everyone wants america to be a thriving nation, and due to past experience liquidating our entire military would be asinine!
but where do you see the line?
what is a just war? and when is using a powerful military a just cause?
who should decide to use the military; the government or its people?
what is the point where ethnocentrism and military conquests collide?
i don’t have the answer, just inclinations and opinions.
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22 Responses to “WAR! WHEN IS IT GOOD FOR?”
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Before we consider the “good” the war has brought to Iraq perhaps we should consider the good things they already had BEFORE we bombed their economy, schools and infrastructures.
We are rebuilding what they already had. I would not call that progress.
Bruce
I concur with Bruce. Yes, they had quicker time frames than Germany, but they also have much more instability and corruption. I could build a house in a month but it wouldn’t be safe or dependable.
Not to mention the millions of refugees from the war as well as the educated working class that split once we invaded.
Something to think about BEFORE you remove a leader.
i guess this hits a little closer to home because i have a friend in the marines.
i believe in what we are doing iraq. it was an amazing day to watch the statues come down.
i feel for our troops, but i know my friend wholeheartedly believes in what he’s doing. i asked him his opinion becuase i feel if anyone is qualified to speak out about it would be the soliders closest to the situation.
i couldn’t shake the commitment and belief in his eyes. and yes he’s been over there fighting.
as far as who should decide whether we go to war or not……that is tough. if we had to wait until everyone agreed we would’ve never been in any wars. i want to say the government, but part of me says the people……hm……maybe the government at first, then a few months into the war we see what kind of support we have from the citizens…..hm……
It’s an interesting question, Stephen, but I believed it falls apart. Well, once we decide which perspective we are taking on ourselves. Are you an American first and foremost or are you a Christ-follower? If you are an American, I concur with you. If you are a Christ-follower, I would concur with Bruce and Josh - oh, and Jesus.
‘Kingdom of the world’-thinking would have us defend earthly freedoms with force and this seems reasonable and necessary (I’m working through this stuff right now in my own life and don’t pretend to have it figured out - more questions than answers at this point). However, ‘kingdom of heaven’-thinking would focus on the whole person and places no value on geography or who owns what land/resources. Maybe if Christ-followers really stood up and modelled Christ, there would be no need for such war. Who knows? We can say, pessimistically, that it won’t work. But we haven’t tried, have we? No, we’ve been sitting in our churches, waiting for the world to come to us while we prop up the deadly system of war and trying to gain power in the political game. Remember the disciples kept thinking Jesus was coming to set up shop as the leader of the Jews and an earthly kingdom. Even though He told them He wasn’t here for that purpose, we have resurrected that idea and continue to live as if He was all about political power. Let’s stop it…
Read ‘The Myth Of A Christian Nation’ by Gregory Boyd. Awesome book. And a plug for another great book, ‘The End Of Religion’ by Bruxy Cavey.
I hope we’re not speaking foreign languages. We’re both boys so we’re using rhythm and not code, right? Much love.
I agree with both sides here. As Christians we need to be peacemakers, but things are a bit more complicated than our ideological talk makes it seem.
I recently heard an Iraqi pastor speak at a church here in Portland. He came to give an update on how the Iraqi Church is doing. There are 30 Evangelical Churches in the country. They are thankful for the troops being there. They still face a lot of persecution but the churches are growing. So we can argue about if it is right or wrong to go to war, or we can find the positive in the situation we don’t have much control over. Just as Stephen is doing. War is inevitable in our broken world. God is going to use what happens, be it corrupt or completely honorable. I Can’t change the fact that we went to war. But I can Pray for the Iraqis. I can Pray for the Terrorist who God loves and desires to have as part of his Kingdom.
I don’t agree with the War, But we must seek the positive, As Christians we are to be people of hope. Right or wrong, There is hope.
I guess if you consider a dictator who murders tens of thousands of his own people a “not so bad situation” then I guess your right. Great job Stephen to provide both the pro’s and con’s of the situation.
i come from a military family. my pap fought in wwII. my mom, who is pushing retirement, fought over in iraq when the whole war started and she is still in the military. My dad served close to twenty years also. i, however, am not in the military. i don’t know what it is like or what some of these soldiers have to witness only their words. even if one doesn’t believe in the war. we must remember the huge sacrifice these men, women, and their families give so we can sit at our laptops and rant and rave about this country or burn a flag they would lay their lives down for. with that let me continue…
i believe as Christ followers we are called to stand up for injustices we see around us. that is how i view the war in iraq. if you saw someone being beaten down in the middle of the street and “turned your cheek” you would not be living out what we, as His followers, are meant to do.
it’s not about crushing a country’s culture, people, or way of life or converting to the “right” way of thinking. it is about giving them the same opportunities we all take for granted over here in the states. is war ALWAYS the answer to do that? Absolutley not. but it is when all else fails.
Jesus said that He didn’t come to the earth to bring peace but a sword. He also told his disciples to sell what they had in order to purchase a sword. please call me out if you think i am taking it out of context. He wouldn’t want us killing in His name or for our own gain or the gain of a country.
yes some will say it is about politics, oil, power, etc. and that maybe true. i am also not saying we should follow blindly the lies of any politician (US or foriegn) or feed off of propaganda. if we see people suffering, their “leader” slaughtering his own people, then we must stand up and help those that can’t help themselves.
Peace on earth is a wonderful thought. But as Christ-followers we all know that it will never be achieved until the End. thank a soldier, thank a veteran, and thank God you have the freedom and rights that so many in the world would die to have to.
merry Christmas.
I had an intense and difficult ongoing debate with my mom about what true justice is this past spring/summer. I struggle with the concept that killing people, however guilty they may be of evil, and seeing them go to Hell is anything but pleasing in God’s eyes.
However, my mom raised the important point that God is a God of righteousness and justice and that sometimes we may never understand His ways of making history and the acts of humanity eventually result in His plan of redemption. I believe He asks us to be peacemakers in a broken, twisted world. But I still don’t believe that war is His perfect will, just something He uses to open our eyes to what is really happening around us.
In light of the war in Iraq and the greater “war on terroism,” and hearing stories from sources overseas in the army, navy and marines (I’m a journalist) of how much it’s changed them…I have to remember in whom my trust lies. It’s not in a government or a man or an opinion or point of view. It’s in God, who is increasingly mysterious to me by the day and the ever powerful, all knowing, truly righteous and just One in my life.
War is a messy, complicated thing to deal with and I have a feeling it will be our constant companion until Christ returns.
Good to hear from you on here, Stephen. Hope the tour is going well for you guys!
Government OR it’s people? The problem with that question, in America at least, is that the government IS the people. We take that for granted all to often. You have a voice in this country.
I agree with Joel that if us Christians really modeled Christ that there probably wouldn’t be a need for war. But theres always going to be oppositions on this earth. Also, we did try to diplomatically stop saddam, but it wasn’t working very well and he was burying people alive…
But we will never all agree on everything, so we should learn to accept the present. The fact is that we just had a war and we’re going through the after affects of it. I think people should stop complaining about what we did wrong and move on and work to make the current situation better.
Us in America don’t realize how good we have it, and if you ask most any Iraqi, they’re glad to be rid of saddam.
“oil production has continued to increase, and recently it has averaged between 1.5 and 2 million barrels per day.”
In other words, American interest is continuing to exploit the Earth.
- or -
America’s addiction to oil continues to grow.
We must not forget about the 4 million Iraqis who have been displaced by this war.
We must not forget about America’s failure to effectively reconstruct Iraq. Millions continue to go without electricity and water!
We must not forget about the sectarian strife the war has sparked.
So, I will start off with saying war sucks!!! There is no way around it!!!
But I will also say that war is not absent from the Bible, actually its all over the Bible. You can start with Noah, you can say that was a war with God and the world and well we all know what happened with that. Then we can look at Sodom and Gomorrah God destroyed everything that was there except some of lot’s family. Now look at Jericho where God commanded them to kill everything inside the walls of Jericho (Men, Women, children, and animals). The list goes on and on, and I believe that in some circumstances we have no other choice but to go to war. God is not a pacifist, He sometimes would command his people to go to war to take and do what He wanted them to do!!!!
Now I’m not saying that God told us to go to war, or that I necessarily agree with us going to war. I just can not stand it when people say that God did not tell people to go to war. I’m pretty sure the Bible I read, has plenty of instances where God tells His people to go to war!!!
“but who voted america to be the police of the world?”
Yet it is the same people asking, “where is the government to help in the time of need?”
If you want personal responsibility then take it all. From Fraud, to floods, to hurricanes, to poverty, to toxic water around the world, to a crappy health care system in the US, to evil dictators killing helpless people. You want the government to stop accepting the responsibility and the burdens?
STEP UP AND DO IT YOURSELF!
ALL OF IT!
stop being bipolar and picking and choosing
The idea that some have said in comments that if we as Christians modeled Christ better than there wouldn’t be a need for war is a very bold statement to make. There is always going to be those who want to push their evil idealogies on others. I don’t know a lot about politics or the details of this war. I do know that war is sadly an inevitable part of life on this earth. God used war in the OT to create His people Israel. So how can we say God is against war. Most people don’t like war, but sometimes it is inevitable.
There is always regardless of the war, going to be many negatives about a war. So if you judge a war based on the downfalls of it, it will probably always seem not worth it at the time. I think we will not know of what this war has done until we look back in about 20-30 years. Then judgments can be made. War is always going to equal death and destruction and displacement. There will never be getting around that. It’s sad but true. I praise God that one day we will not have to worry about wars or death or sin at all.
This is the perspective of a non-American. My country, the Philippines was once under the Americans, and so I can speak with a different perspective. First we were under Spain, then under the USA — both had their positive and negative effects on our country.
Many non-Americans may think this way:
> Who gives America the right to be the world’s police or get involved in other peoples’ issues, uninvited?
> Who says that their brand of democracy is what must be applied to situations so far separated from them geographically, culturally, etc?
> Is their ideology better just because their voice is louder?
> If the war in Iraq was about an oppressive regime and social injustice, why start with Iraq when there are many more countries in far worse condition? (For many, it looks like it’s about the oil).
These aren’t necessarily my opinions. As a Filipino, I am thankful for America and Spain — Christianity and democracy wouldn’t have looked the same in our country without their influence. But there were MANY abuses that show ill effects on our country to this day. The much idealized American dream preached by American media to the world, for example, is an infection in our culture that does evil, if you ask me. It further impoverishes our country.
I’m not calling any country down. All I’m saying is that there are many other perspectives beyond that of the current administration in the USA. Because America has a loud voice and unrivaled military might, it has a HUGE responsibility to use it wisely. Thank God for dialogue such as this. This is how progress happens, if you ask me.
Personally, I think the war in Iraq is unjust. War as a primary resort is something that doesn’t sit well with me. I feel like it was entered into back in 2003 under a faulty premise, with little to show for almost half a decade later. If you know a tree by its fruit, I wonder if the war in Iraq can be called “good.”
Peace and respect to all.
Like Joel said, you should all read ‘The Myth of a Christian Nation.’
War is hell…literally. Killing, raping, hurting, pain…none of these things bring blessings, none of these things are loving. Jesus did not kill or rape, so I will not, nor will I condone it anywhere in the world, by any regime or any country. I will look to his example first and foremost.
I equate war with sin. It is is NEVER in God’s plan. It is NEVER what God wants. But sin happens. We sin. Our leaders sin. Everyone sins. God, in his great awesomeness, transcends our screw-ups and make healing come of it.
Even though we will always sin, we should always TRY to stop doing that. Even though there will always be wars, we should never stop TRYING to avoid war at every cost. And to do that, we can pray. That is the most powerful thing possible.
Pray for peace, guys.
w. greg, s : i am calling you outy for taking a passage out of context….
“i did not come to bring peace but a sword.”
peace in this verse refers to that weak creature that develops through submission and fear, not the deep peace of christ rooted in righteousness and judgment. conversely, sword in this verse is a metaphor for the word of god that cuts through the gauze of worldy custom- a sword to prick the conscience, a choice that must be made to take up the cross of christ.
“if you don’t have a sword, sell your clock and buy one.”
in isaiah 53 there is a reference to the suferring servant. jesus could have intended for the sword to be used symbolically, to fulfill the descriptions in isaiah 53: 12 that says the servant will be “numbered with the transgressors.” it was illegal for jews to carry weapons under the roman occupation. “it appears that on this one specific occasion jesus deliberately arranged for the disciples to be in possession of weapons,” wrote presbyterian minister rob yule, “so that even though he was not a criminal, he might be arrested as one.” however it seems like jesus intention was not for the weapons to be used to protect or defend him because a few verses later he rebuked peter for using the sword.
until the time of constantine no christian writing allowed for christians to participate in war.
all of this was taken from “the revolution” edited by heather zydek.
The one comment about turning the other cheek is used completely out of context. This passage is one of non-violence period, not of utilizing violence to stop violence. If you are trying to use this passage to justify the War in Iraq, it simply does not work.
Also, I’d like to see the passage where Jesus tells his disciples to sell everything they own and purchase a sword. Last time I checked, Jesus tells his disciples to sell everything they own and follow him…a man of peace…a man who willingly did not resort to violence when he was being crucified.
Also, all this talk of war ending when Jesus comes saddens my heart. Why would Jesus tell us to love our enemies if he didn’t think we could really do it? It is a complete cop-out to justify violence by saying peace will only come when Jesus comes again. Christians are called to be peacemakers! We are called to offer a DRASTICALLY different lifestyle to the ways of this world. By supporting this war, we are simply becoming one with the world again. When Jesus calls us to be his disciples, to be his followers, he believes that we can actually do it.
Finally, yes the Iraqi church is benefitting due to the American presence. But did you know that 10-20% of the Iraqi population was Christian before the war began? Check the Iraqi census. Now the Christian population is almost non-existent. Why? Because of the sectarian strife and violence the war has created.
Bruce & Josh - I understand where you’re coming from. That’s the common perception - that we’re just fixing what we broke in Iraq.
The problem is, it just ain’t so.
I was there in 2003. I helped to break some stuff. As an air officer at the Marine Corps headquarters, my biggest frustration was all the targets we COULDN’T hit. We had to be extremely carfeul not to damage schools, hospitals, mosques, historical sites, neighborhoods, and the list went on and on.
Now, I didn’t want to blow up any of those places, especailly if there might be civilians inside.
But when the bad guys set up missile sites adjacent to schools, or ammo dumps in mosques, they knew what they were doing - making it almost impossible for us to engage those targets that were trying to kill our aviators and troops.
They used our high regard for human life and our aversion to looking like Barbarians to hide their war machines where they knew we were very unlikely to attack them.
No, what we spent most of our time repairing when the shooting stopped was not what we broke. We didn’t break very much besides military targets. We spent the vast majority of our time fixing what Saddam let slide into disrepair BEFORE the shooting started.
Saddam spent tremendously more money on his lavish palaces than on improving his people’s paltry standard of living.
Many children, epsecially girls, were unable to attend school for years BEFORE we launched the assault from Kuwait. Many hospitals were in terrible disrepair BEFORE we ever bombed military targets. Few civilian sites were damaged at all during our military campaign.
I know that war is an emotional subject - it is for me, too, but try to deal with it on a factual level. Assumptions and feelings should never guide us in matters of life and death. Talk to people who have been there and find out what’s REALLY happening.
P.S. Yes, I’m the REAL Colonel Sanders, although I once worked at a Chick-fil-A, and I’m now a Baptist minister - all of which make me partial to fried chicken.
I do agree that war sucks. Anyone that disagrees I would need to question. The problem with this war is that it seems like no one really knows what it is about. Is it about oil? A murderous dictator? Or do we just want to put more Starbucks over there?
Here in the US we complain about how we have lost a few thousand soldiers. While they are mourning the loss of hundreds of thousands. I have a friend that recently passed who by himself has killed well over a hundred of ‘them.’ Many of us on our soil want us outta there. Many of us that are on their soil see the need to have us there. My personal opinion, if we give up, pack up, and head home the war will follow us here.
If you listen to Walid Shubat, Koome, or Brigette Gabriel they think the war is already here. I think we should keep the war there as long as possible and try to solve the problem on their domestic side before we have to defend our own shores. Yes, there will be casualties. There will be reactions to our actions. There will also be consequences. Much like in our faith. But in the end will the world be a better place? I would like to think so. If I am wrong, I would still like to say it was worth a try to attempt a rescue of a nation. If not the world.
just a friendly suggestion…
you should use spell check…
and maybe take a refresher study in grammatic syntax…
good thought though…
but it would help us to understand it better if you could more clearly express your ideas to us….
why are there so many haters? i’ve never met another human that i totally agree with, the rest of you need to get a grip. i got what he was saying and didn’t notice the syntax issues and anything else. may be we all need to go back to class?
war is at times the only way to get to a desired end. jesus said that peacemakers will be blessed, not peacekeepers and there is a vast difference between these two. stephen is speaking like a peacemaker.
Throughout the course of this war, I’ve tried to approach the issues brought about by it from the vantage point of a skeptic: from the reasons we were given to enter the war to the reasons our military is still there. I still disagree with much of what is going on, but reading this at least gave me some hope that our country is still doing some good (or attempting to). Many of the positives Mr. Christian listed are very likely tainted by how the institutions in Iraq are currently functioning, but at the very least those institutions are in place now. In times that feel pretty depressing and dark, at times we have to look for the positive just to keep our sanity.